Home safe and some pondering on vaccines

[mamagotcha]

We're back safe and sound, the van is unloaded, and the cats have shown their disdain at the return of the dog. We tried to go see the Midnight Circus at Daley Plaza, but only got there for the last 30 seconds of the finale. Still, we had a nice outing in the brisk autumn air. Hardly any trick-or-treaters here tonight, and Linc made a huge haul (that he kindly shared with his big brother). Bill made some cinnamon rolls, and I've been puttering around unpacking, reading magazines, and fooling around on the computer.

I've been seeing posts about that WIRED article about vaccines, and had several people questioning my decision process about choosing not to vaccinate my own children.

For those who are new to the story... I dutifully took Cordell in at the age of 4 months for his first round of shots (this was at the recommendation of the family practice doctors who provided care for the clients of the midwives who did my homebirth). He was given several shots that day, including MMR and DTP, and within a day he had a very high fever, with bright eyes, red cheeks, and no crying... he just sat there and didn't move for several days. I know I called and asked about this reaction, and was told that it was perfectly normal, everything was fine, don't worry about it.

This set off every alarm bell in my new-mama brain, and I finally started doing some serious research about vaccines. I dug through the UCD library (the internet as we know it wasn't around 21 years ago), asked a lot of friends and professionals about their experiences, and finally concluded that I didn't want to muck around with my baby's developing immune system. Like circumcision, I figured I could do it later if I changed my mind... but I could never, ever undo it, and until I was certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was the right thing to do (and fully willing to accept the risks and consequences), I wasn't going to do it.

I have one particularly strong memory of that time. I asked another mom who had given birth around the same time as me what she thought of vaccinations... she was an experienced veterinarian, who worked with valuable racehorses. She said she wasn't going to vaccinate her babies until they had weaned, just as no veterinarian would dare to upset a foal's developing immune system before weaning. This reasoning resonated with me at a deep level.

When I look for studies comparing the rates of SIDS, autoimmune problems (allergies, arthritis, asthma, Crohn's, diabetes, eczema) and neurological disorders (autism, Asperger's, ADHD) between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, it seems that there is very little to be found. I did see the Generation Rescue survey, focusing on the increased rate of NDs among vaccinated boys, and a study showing an increase of diabetes corresponding to the increase of vaccinations. Then I see sites like this, and wonder how valid those statistics are...

This call for a federally funded look at the long-term effects of vaccinations is extremely heartening to me. Perhaps my reluctance to vaccinate will, if nothing else, help provide a larger sample for Science to settle the answer once and for all.

The whole "FEAR" thing feels inappropriate to me... not only do I think my not-vaxing was a very careful and studied reaction to something that very easily COULD have been entirely dictated by fear, but I was amused by a front-page article in USA Today that quoted a pediatric clinic worker as saying that parents were "in a panic," resulting in a lot of verbal abuse. Seems to me the fear is kinda working the other way...

As I look through discussions, the terms "pro-disease" and "anti-vaccine" really irk me, too... the whole "pro-abortion" thing over again. Raising emotions and using inflammatory rhetoric won't help anything. Nobody is "pro-disease," we are instead choosing a different set of risks to assume than those who accept the whole (or partial) vaccination schedule from their physicians.

There isn't even really an agreement on when the human immune system is fully developed... I can find sources saying 6-8 months, 7-8 years, and 14 years. The 7-8 years sounds most likely to me, because that's around the time human children would wean naturally, and so the fully developed immune system would coincide with the loss of immune support from mama milk.

My thinking was that Julia and Cordell's systems were developed enough when they both decided to become vaccinated in the last few years (Cordell so he could go to Japan, Julia for her entry into Clark), and this was confirmed when I spoke with our family physician at that time. Clay is old enough to make his own health decisions, too; we will of course help him get whatever vaccines he decides to do.

I don't think Lincoln is ready yet, although I do think he's far closer to it than he was when he was younger. I might do something like pertussis or measles if those start going around, and I would definitely look into specific vaccines if we were going to travel overseas. I would consider doing H1N1, but I suspect that he has probably already had it... I know he (and I) have been exposed at least twice on this trip to cases who were later confirmed H1N1, and he (and I) didn't come down with anything (he also had vomiting, fever and a cough for a few days just before we moved, and I had a similar but less nasty case right after). I'd rather he caught wild chickenpox, but will revisit that once he's heading into puberty.

Anyway, I wanted to put all this into one place, since I've been typing out versions of it recently and thought it would be nice to have a link.

ETA: jedusor has one of those conversations going on over in her LJ.

Comments

[feckalyn.livejournal.com]

What does that have to do with a discussion about vaccinations?

There is no vaccine that causes the disease it is made to prevent....

[mh75.livejournal.com]

I was just trying to make the point that herd immunity isn't the only issue for immunization. If you believe that the risks of immunization outweigh the benefits to society, i think your responsible move is to take care of yourself at the potential expense of society. There is a line somewhere. Clearly, Katje's evaluation has been that the risks to her kids are too great to immunize them, even though it may protect others in her society. I both deeply disagree with her conclusion, and respect her right to make it. I felt like the post i was responding to wasn't acknowledging that your responsibility to society must be balanced by your responsibility to self.

[feckalyn.livejournal.com]

I still am not entirely following your logic in relation to giving someone polio....

I feel my responsibility to myself (and my loved ones) is to get every vaccine that is made available (and approved by the FDA and advocated by the CDC) to keep me from getting infected with something that could have been prevented. This also happens to further herd immunity, on which I also place a high value.

Nor am I disrespecting Katje's (or anyone's) decisions not to vaccinate, just expressing my personal opinion on the matter.

[mh75.livejournal.com]

My point was that there was a line that i think we can all imagine where we wouldn't choose to vaccinate. If the vaccination caused polio, i don't think we'd do it. If the vaccination had the stats it does today, most of us choose to do it. Somewhere in the middle there is line. Since the actual line is ill-defined, i think we need to respect that some people may find themselves on the other side of it.
It was just a thought experiment.

[feckalyn.livejournal.com]

Ok, now I get you :) Sorry I was slow there.

The problem with that argument though is there is no scientifically proven parallel between what you are suggesting and the reality of the risks of today's vaccines.

This is an EXTREMELY complex issue. Do I believe in mandatory vaccination? No. Do I become concerned when I hear about a measles outbreak in San Diego that left a number of families in quarantine for weeks with infants under 12 months hospitalized because of the severity of the disease they contracted? Yes.

How do we individualize vaccinations so that families that are fearful feel more empowered and comfortable with the process? How do we help people to value true science over fear-mongering? How do we have these conversations without turning it into an 'us' vs. 'them' situation?

We all want healthy kids and families and communities. Every single one of us. The conversation needs to be refocused on that and move out from there.

[mh75.livejournal.com]

FWIW, i think there are a growing number of doctors who are willing to evaluate vaccination on a case-by-case basis. I believe that parents (and patients) can do this, evaluating both their own exposure to disease, and the exposure they offer others.

I was not trying to suggest that there was a case such as what i described in the modern program - i was actually deliberately trying to choose something ridiculous and far to one end of the scale. I think i've stated my belief that the current standard recommendations to vaccinate reflect the truth of what we are seeing in actual science about these programs. At the same time, i don't think that 'it is all about the greater good vs. the individual'. I think individuals have a responsibility to consider the impact of something on themselves, and their families, as well as society while they are making a decision.

I guess, that strikes a nerve with me, too.

[mamagotcha.livejournal.com]

What is disturbing is that what you said... the most ridiculous thing you could think of... is the actual situation right now.

"Polio has been eradicated from the western hemisphere, and there have been no cases of wild polio in the U.S. since 1979. Since then the only cases of polio have been caused by the live oral vaccine. The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) estimates that the risk of a child getting vaccine- associated polio from OPV is 1 in 520,000 first doses and 1 in 12.4 million subsequent doses. The CDC reports that eight to ten American children and adults come down with vaccine-associated polio every year. The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) maintains that many more children and adults are neurologically affected by OPV, but are never properly diagnosed." (emphasis mine)

So the only cases of polio in the US in recent years have actually been caused by the vaccine... and yet we keep giving it to kids. This is a situation where I posit that by not giving my kid the vaccine, I actually helped the greater good by NOT taking the action that is the ONLY way to infect people.

[mh75.livejournal.com]

The current vaccination program in the US does not include the use of the oral vaccine, which is the one that can cause actual cases of polio. Cases that are found in the US tend to be because someone has come into the country with a polio infection, perhaps because of the oral polio vaccine received outside the country. It is still recommended that people vaccinate against polio, because the spread of the disease can be quick, and the consequences of contracting the disease of often very very high. Further, polio is not eliminated in a global sense, as there are other nations that do not have an effective vaccination program in place. Since polio is a disease that can be contagious without noticeable symptoms, it is possible to arrive in the country, looking perfectly healthy, and then spread the disease to someone who is unvaccinated.

US in recent years have actually been caused by the vaccine... and yet we keep giving it to kids In short, that is an incorrect conclusion - we are not giving kids a vaccine that can cause polio.

The US vaccination program recommends a vaccine that has basically no side effects in the vast majority of people. The likelihood of a serious side effect is vanishingly small, and these tend to be an allergic reaction.
By choosing not to vaccinate your kids against polio after 1990, you did not help the public good. They would not have been able to contract polio from the recommended inactivated vaccine, but they are currently in a position to pass polio from someone with the infection to someone else (or to die from the disease themselves.)